Curse

Improvavel · Jul 12, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

According to the wiki he can hit casters for around 300 damage. 2 hits will bring down a caster - it's possible for a protter to miss prot spirit in that time, as he'll be distracted by the enchanted scythes floating around.

A warrior though? That should take closer to 4 hits to kill. Prot spirit in that time shouldn't be a problem to micro and I don't recall any enchantment removal in that area.

Enchanted Scythe has rending sweep.

I wish I had a screenshot but I was too shocked to take one- I believe it was with a crude swing and I might have been crude swinging myself.

I guess that is enough aggressive playstyle for anyone

Jeydra · Jul 12, 2009, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

According to the wiki he can hit casters for around 300 damage. 2 hits will bring down a caster - it's possible for a protter to miss prot spirit in that time, as he'll be distracted by the enchanted scythes floating around.

That's why you have Prot Spirit on a hero, using it before you aggro ...

I don't remember any threat from the Enchanted Scythes. If you're worried, cast Vanguard Assassins, kill a target as fast as possible (Discord ftw?), then cast another Vanguard Assassin. Use YMLAD intelligently and on AP recharge. If really worried, execute a long pull. Problem solved!

Improvavel · Jul 12, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

That's why you have Prot Spirit on a hero, using it before you aggro ...

I don't remember any threat from the Enchanted Scythes. If you're worried, cast Vanguard Assassins, kill a target as fast as possible (Discord ftw?), then cast another Vanguard Assassin. Use YMLAD intelligently and on AP recharge. If really worried, execute a long pull. Problem solved!

What happens to your microed PS when a Enchanted Scythe hits you with rending sweep?

Mine got removed.

Of course when I was clearing that dungeon in HM for Zquest, I always aggroed the 3 mobs, and that was the only time I've died due to a freak random chance.

My rank 2 survivor soon to be rank 3 (or when I actually play it) did that dungeon twice for zquest while pulling all the 3 mobs and still has 0 deaths.

Xenomortis · Jul 12, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

That's why you have Prot Spirit on a hero, using it before you aggro ...

Enemies can break aggro and may change targets. Things happen that mean your plan doesn't go as well as you hoped, but rarely is it ever a serious issue.

Rending Sweep requires a hex and the only hexes come from the Eldritch Ettin (of which he has two). I've never really payed much attention to how much these get spread about.

It's a small issue anyway, not much point in discussing it further.

Pocketmancer · Jul 12, 2009, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

First the OP asked for an opinion.

Second you use whatever rocks your boat.

Third, working is different from best or more efficient.

And having a superior is more efficient. If you're going to die because you have -75 HP in difference, you would have died anyway if you had a minor equipped in the next hit. Get out of the front line already and learn to play the game already.

Improvavel · Jul 12, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

And having a superior is more efficient. If you're going to die because you have -75 HP in difference, you would have died anyway if you had a minor equipped in the next hit. Get out of the front line already and learn to play the game already.

Yeah the enemy frontline never go hit your backline...

Imagine you have 300 health left, after some spell, degen, attack whatever hit you, while the other guy has 375. Imagine that a guy there can do 300 damage or even 2 guys there hit for 175 and will just do it at the same time.
In one case you are death and in the other you arent.

Or imagine the monks were just busy, one casting aegis other using SoA on someone else. Those 75 health, while wouldn't save you from the next hit per se, just bought enough time for the monks to react.

So, all that time saved by running a superior just got blown away by the time u spent death and the time wasted rezzing you.

In most nm and some hm, running a superior is/can be fine.

But as you can see from the my post before, freak events happen.

If you careful with aggro and blah di blah you might avoid all that stuff.

Or you can be playing in the edge and overaggroing by choice, to make stuff like MoP or any AoE, be even more efficient.

Then, what is more efficient?

Dealing a few more measly damage per skill or having the ability to take greater risks and possibly higher rewards?

And 12 damage extra on searing flames is only 2% of a lvl 26 mob 600 health.

Jeydra · Jul 12, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

What happens to your microed PS when a Enchanted Scythe hits you with rending sweep?

Mine got removed.

I never got hit by the Enchanted Scythe.

Your rank 2 Survivor aggro'ed all three mobs and didn't die ... because he wasn't running a Superior rune?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenosmortis

Enemies can break aggro and may change targets. Things happen that mean your plan doesn't go as well as you hoped, but rarely is it ever a serious issue.

By the time they break aggro and change targets, they'll be halfway dead already and AP will be working its magic. That's the ideal case, and happens really often too actually. Only time it doesn't happen is if you've got so much DP the mobs break aggro sooner than normal, and that's when you run and apply a more advanced technique.

@above -

If you are getting hit for 175 damage / hit you should be under a Prot Spirit.

Freak events are, by definition, freakish in nature, so they don't happen very often. So you die once in a 3-level dungeon to a freak event and lose some time. What about all the other fights? Do you really think the three seconds it takes to res you can compare to what you gain in speed from the Superior rune, counting all the fights through all three levels?

If you count freak events like this one, then how about you overaggro'ing and wiping as a result?

If mobs are easy enough that you can aggro several at a time, then so can someone running a Superior rune, because you still shouldn't be dying. Unless you are claiming that the mobs regularly get you to <75 health, so it is the extra health that actually keeps you alive, not your teambuild / your pro Monks / your pro PvE skillz.

An extra 12 damage from Searing Flames might be 2% of a monster's 600 health, except if you cast Searing Flames 10 times it'll be 120 damage. And it's an AoE spell that might hit more than one target. Does that still look measly?

Improvavel · Jul 12, 2009, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I never got hit by the Enchanted Scythe.

Your rank 2 Survivor aggro'ed all three mobs and didn't die ... because he wasn't running a Superior rune?

Not in that case, but I've been with 20 health before...

Pocketmancer · Jul 12, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Yeah the enemy frontline never go hit your backline...

Imagine you have 300 health left, after some spell, degen, attack whatever hit you, while the other guy has 375. Imagine that a guy there can do 300 damage or even 2 guys there hit for 175 and will just do it at the same time.
In one case you are death and in the other you arent.

Or imagine the monks were just busy, one casting aegis other using SoA on someone else. Those 75 health, while wouldn't save you from the next hit per se, just bought enough time for the monks to react.

So, all that time saved by running a superior just got blown away by the time u spent death and the time wasted rezzing you.

In most nm and some hm, running a superior is/can be fine.

But as you can see from the my post before, freak events happen.

If you careful with aggro and blah di blah you might avoid all that stuff.

Or you can be playing in the edge and overaggroing by choice, to make stuff like MoP or any AoE, be even more efficient.

Then, what is more efficient?

Dealing a few more measly damage per skill or having the ability to take greater risks and possibly higher rewards?

And 12 damage extra on searing flames is only 2% of a lvl 26 mob 600 health.

You do realize that in hard mode, reaching a point where 75 health difference determines your life and death means you're already being either the target of multiple physicals, standing in the middle of an AoE DoT and not moving away, or have degen up the wazoo. Considering everything you fight in HM attacks a lot faster and moves a lot faster, you seriously think 75 health is going to buffer all of that consistently? Not a bit.

I've rarely had any of those problems playing ever since I've always been playing with superiors unless they were in places that were hard regardless (see Joko's Domain HM Vanquish but I don't know if that can even be considered hard anymore). Also, superiors aren't there to add on the extra damage. I use them to reach break points in skills. Adding several seconds to a ward or enchantment means I protect the party even more. That's just an example.

Jenn · Jul 12, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

If you take henchies/heroes out of the equation and you're running with real people in hard mode, with a superior on, you do become a lot more vulnerable. My point of view comes from that because I hardly ever just H/H stuff - way too boring for me

. So in that respect, sometimes you can't actually count on other people to preprot you, or have the same reflexes as a hero or henchie would. You can't also count on your teammates to all hit the same target, or use optimal positioning. In times like those, you can definitely tell who has low HP or AL compared to those who don't =O.

As for wearing superiors while with heroes/henchies, if you honestly believe that you're just so perfect, and everything works out for you every time, and you are just THAT great, then sure, slap superior runes on everyone! ;D. But honestly, it's still entirely possible to run a superior rune without having ridiculously low health or AL. You can buff yourself with health or armor insignias/runes to help negate the loss of 75hp, but anyone who tries to justify radiant insignias on an ele can DiaF :P.

I still think it comes down to what you're doing and where you are, and which character class you're on. I think if you have an MM hero, a superior is worth it. If you're running a fire ele in hard mode against a bunch of physicals (which is already sometimes stupid), a superior instead of a major or minor won't make that much of a difference. It would make more of a difference if you had an air ele. Running a major or superior on a ranger versus a bunch of elementals in the norn area is forgivable because of their AL to elemental damage, and they have the advantage of bow distance.

There's no "1 rule" on using superior runes. Generally, I'd advise against it (in hard mode) since either the breakpoints aren't worth it, the circumstances don't call for it, and/or you can't count on your teammates. There are times when it matters, but I can't think of many. If you H/H, then it matters less (as ensign said, enemies <3 henchies).

Pocketmancer · Jul 12, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Actually, running with human players more or less guarantees your unlikelihood of dying. You get all those overpowered PvE skills out there that just flat out give you godmode or close to it. And if anything, humans can use those support builds that no other heroes can use due to AI and PvE only skills that they cannot equip.

Edit: Also, my heroes do have superiors and such on them. I don't call my play methods perfect, but I don't construct their builds in a way where they cannot back themselves up. The point I was trying to make with my post a bit back is that -75 health difference can be made up for by having a superior rune that can yield better results with a more analytical and proper playstyle. Do not sear me to appear as a know-it-all because I'm not. I only preach what I practice and I practice what I preach unlike many others.

Kendel · Jul 13, 2009, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Not in that case, but I've been with 20 health before...

Congratulations? I've been on 20 health on my ~510 max hp Ele with a Sup Rune before too. I also recall being hit for a 250 damage Lightning Orb too, which i'm quite sure would've killed you with or without the Sup. This isn't PvP. PvE HM eles have no qualms with dealing upwards of 200 damage and i can assure you, your sup rune is not saving you 250 health. Yes running low health is bad, but doing so because your using Radiants and Attunements instead of Survivors and Vitae is the problem, not because your using a Sup.

Paul Dawg · Aug 21, 2009, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

If you're going to die because you have -75 HP in difference, you would have died anyway if you had a minor equipped in the next hit.

That makes absolutely no sense.

If the probability of dying with X hp is the same as the probability of dying with X-75 hp, then the probability of dying with X-75 hp is also the same as the probability of dying with X-150 hp, and, by the transitive property, the probability of dying with X hp is the same as the probability of dying with X-150 hp.

And that's manifestly untrue.

The short version: sometimes not having those 75 hp will kill you, and those are the times when you die.

kanuks · Aug 21, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

I don't disagree with that, and I too do HM with unruned heroes (which is about the equivalent health-wise of your heroes, probably), so it is possible. I'm not sure about you, but I do notice a difference in the hero's survivability, though, unless I'm completely willing to micromanage heroes.

That being said, I still wouldn't take someone on my team running around with 450hp in HM =P. Since you can't flag them and micro their bars, they probably will fail, haha. Their lowered HP makes a massive difference, and since I monk for a lot of people, I can tell when someone is running 450hp versus 600hp.

Yest but superior runes are -75 health, not -150.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

I always wonder even with a sup for say 6 more damage per cast? as an example.

Will it kill faster anyway? now let my TRY to explain!

Say the average monster has 480hp, and your spell @14 does 96 damage, and your spell @ 16 does 100 damage! Im thinking the principle not an actual specific spell here

Does that matter?! both empty the hp bar at the same time with the same amount of casts. (ofc you can argue about heals from monks but they will end with about the same result of the same amount of casts and same energy used)

Did i put that across right? its 6am :P blaahh.

Well SF is an AOE spell so it's easy to hurt 5 foes at the same time. 10 damage difference * 5 becomes a decent difference and puts more pressure on the ennemy monks. I do think however that fire eles doesn't benefit much from 14 to 16 in their fire attributes. Other characters usually gets longer hex duration, enchantment durations, stances, etc.

_Nihilist_ · Aug 21, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Yest but superior runes are -75 health, not -150.

Sup Rune: -75hp
Non-Survivor Insignias: -40hp
No High-HP Weapon-set: -30/-60hp

End Result: -145/-175hp

I think Illfated was just making a point since it was mentioned earlier in the Thread that a few players use Sup+Major Runes or multiple Sup Runes on occasion.

the jazzed one · Aug 23, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

i think that superior runes on a fire ele are ok in nm but not in hm because it is dependent on armor...hence the reason i only use a nuker build for pvp but otherwise i use perma because it ignores armour and is actually given a distinctive bonus from a sup

laksa and curry · Aug 28, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

I think the choice is not only based on sup rune, major runes or minor runes.
There are 2 other parts of the HP equation.
Equiptment and insigna.

Health freak mode:
14 attribute with minor rune health insigna+ vitae+sup vigor, +60 staff.

Somewhere in the middle mode:
Any combination which balances +HP and -HP.

I do not care mode:
sup rune + energy insigna and the use of weapon mods that do not buff HP.

IMO I usually choose a mixture so I am not too concern with the -75 HP or -35HP. It is easily offset with insignas and weapon modifications.

tuna-fish_sushi · Aug 28, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

If I am on my elementalist I always use a superior rune. I am an elementalist, I want to deal damage, not tank it.

If I am tanking enough damage to die with xxx-75 health then I would probably have died with xxx health because that means the heroes aren't protting/healing me. If heroes aren't healing/protting me then it means they are low on energy or recharge and therefore would have died either way. No one uses PuGs anymore unless your doing a team farming build.

Improvavel · Aug 28, 2009, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuna-fish_sushi

If I am tanking enough damage to die with xxx-75 health then I would probably have died with xxx health because that means the heroes aren't protting/healing me.

If you NEVER DIE when running a superior rune, then, YES USE THE SUP RUNE.

If you die and are using a superior rune you don't know if you would have died with a minor rune instead, because you didn't have the +75 health when you died, did you?

I've sometimes survived by switching from caster set to defensive (+60 health set), I've had at certain points during the game under 75 health and then survived.

That "if it kills you with x+75 hp should also kill you with x hp" isn't true all the instances.

People talk as if the damage is done in a single packet to a single target of your party at a time.